richard williams (![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} rmwilliamsjr) wrote,@ 2006-03-09 10:50:00 |
|
required reading to enter into the CED debate
grabbed from the signature at: http://www.christianforums.com/u939
posted as: http://www.christianforums.com/t273
I've often wondered if a forum like this for the creation-evolution-design debate would benefit from entry requirements.
say reading a certain set of books or websites and taking a quick test---this would allow posting
then a more complex list and maybe a short essay or a book review showing that you mastered the content of the book, for the right to start a thread.
say you could create such a place to discuss these issues.
what are the big topics you would desire that people were familiar with and what are the books and/or websites you would require familiarity with?
i'd propose familiarity with:
argumentation and logic-
epistemology-
biological science-
human evolution-
history and philosophy of science-
elements of the CED debate itself-
i'd required reading:
for elements of the debate=>
Evolution from Creation to New Creation: Conflict, Conversation, and Convergence
Ted Peters and Marinez Hewlett
history and philosophy of science==>
David Oldroyd
_The Arch of Knowledge: An Introductory Study of the History of the Philosophy and Methodology of Science_
on human evolution==>
Where Do We Come From?: The Molecular Evidence for Human Descent by Jan Klein, Naoyuki Takahata
* Knowledge of logical fallacies (esp. argument from ignorance and appeal to popularity)
* Basic knowledge of evolution - can give accurate definitions of the following: biological evolution, species, natural selection, mutation, allele, gene pool, speciation.
* Knowing what evolution is and what it is not. (ex. cats giving birth to dogs is NOT evolution)
* Knowledge of how science works - the scientific method, empiricism, falsifiability, methodological naturalism, uniformitarianism, etc
* the ability to distinguish science from pseudoscience
The main problem I see with lists like this being a prerequisite is that it's pretty much an impossibility for a creationist to fulfill the criteria and remain a creationist.
but several websites like:
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ind
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/
ought to make the required reading list.
which reminds me of the book:
The Art of Deception: An Introduction to Critical Thinking : How to : Win an Argument, Defend a Case, Recognize a Fallacy, See Through a Deception
by Nicholas Capaldi
There are so many! [consider them all five stars]
One issue is that too few folks understand both perspectives. I recommend for the general reader interested in the Bible the following:
(This assumes that you have also read at least Genesis).
Blenkinsopp, Joseph
1992 The Pentateuch: An Introduction to the First Five Books of the Bible The Anchor Bible Reference Library New York: ABRL/Doubleday
Dalley, Stephanie
2000 Myths from Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others. Revised Oxford: Oxford University Press
Dever, William
2001 What Did the Biblical Writers Know & When Did They Know IT?: What Archaeology can tell us about the reality of ancient Israel Grand Rapids: William B.
Eerdmans Publishing Company
Finkelstein, Israel, Neil Silberman
2001 The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts New York: The Free Press
Friedman, Richard Elliott
1987 Who Wrote the Bible New York:Harper and Row (Paperback Edition)
The following book by Ron Numbers is also my recommendation for all partisipants, because one should know the social and historical origin of creationism in America.
Numbers, Ronald L.
1993 The Creationists: The Evolution of Scientific Creationism Berkeley: University of California Press
<----has two postings recommending it
I would next recommend that all creationists have read some basic level, general reader science (some of the science advocates should as well). I have left out all of the books by Dawkins because A) I am not particularly fond of his writing, and B) someone else will surely mention them. The following will provide a good general understanding of what the science standards are today. Darwin's book is for historical reference, although I am surprised at how well his core argument has held up for 150 years. :
Burnie, Davin
1999 Get a Grip on Evolution London: The Ivy Press
Dalrymple, G. Brent,
1991 The Age of the Earth. Stanford: Stanford University Press
Carroll, Sean B.
2005 Endless Forms Most Beutiful New York: Norton
Darwin, Charles
1859 "The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection" (Six editions between 1859
and 1872)
Iris Fry,
2000 The Emergence of Life on Earth: A Historical and Scientific Overview Rutgers University Press
Tattersall, Ian
1995 The Fossil Trail Oxford University Press
There are several books about the Science/Creationism conflict from the point-of-view of scientists. Two I recommend are:
Eldredge, Niles
2001 "The Triumph of Evolution: And the Failure of Creationism" New York: W. H.
Freeman & Co.
Scott, Eugenie C.,
2005 Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction University of California Press
There are also a few proscience works written by Christians that are directed to other Christians:
Ken Miller
1999 Finding Darwin's God New York: HarperCollins
Towne, Margaret Gray
2003 Honest to Genesis: A Biblical & Scientific Challenge to Creationism Baltimore: PublishAmerica
Stephen J. Godfrey, Christopher R. Smith
2005 Paradigms on Pligrimadge Toronto: Clements Publishing
Far too few proscience people have paid much attention to what creationism really is about. I think that the proscience advocates (and many of the creationists) should read:
Batten, Don (ed.)
2002 The Revised & Expanded Answers Book Green Forest AR: Master Books
Ham, Ken
2001 ed. The Lie, Evolution. Green Forest: Master Books
Lubenow, Marvin
1992 The Bones of Contention: A Creationist Assessment of Human Fossils Grand Rapids: Baker Book House
Sarfati, Jonathon
1999 Refuting Evolution Green Forest AR: Master Books
Thaxton, C. B., Walter L. Bradley, R. L. Olsen
1984 The Mystery of Life’s Origin. New York: Philosophical Library
Whitcomb, John C., Henry M. Morris
1961 The Genesis Flood Grand Rapids: Baker Book House
If you are like me, you will find the abject lies told by creationists to be both infuriating and invigorating.
Inteligent Design Caretionism deserves its own list which I hope to attend to later today.
from: DR.G.H. posting at: http://www.christianforums.com/show
from: http://www.christianforums.com/t204
i managed to get The Biblical Flood: A Case Study of the Church's Response to Extrabiblical Evidence
by Davis A. Young
looks very good.
reading on naturalism and found
Is Nature Supernatural? A Philosophical Exploration of Science and Nature
by Simon L. Altmann
certainly one place to start.
My favorite theology of evolution is God After Darwin by John Haught. Haught puts out a good natural theology in that book. I have written about 10,000 words based upon that book and Kenneth Miller's Finding Darwins God for a formal debate elsewhere.
I also read Doubt's About Darwin for a history of the ID movement but I find the evidence for evolution and natural selection too strong.
http://www.literature.org/authors/darwi
"The Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection" by Charles Darwin.
The Demon Haunted World
Carl Sagan
YECist list
-Shattering the myths of Darwinism
Richard Milton
-Darwin on trial
-Defeating Darwinism by opening minds
-Reason in the balance
-Objections sustained
Phillip E Johnson
-Not by chance! Shattering the modern theory of evolution
Dr Lee Spetner
-The Patristic Doctrine of creation (Epiphany Journal,fall 89-winter 90)
Father Seraphim Rose
"Dogmatics in Outline" by Karl Barth
"The Mismeasure of Man" by Stephen Jay Gould
Although neither of these deal with evolution, per se, I think both help to reorient one's thinking. The former utterly condemns any God-of-the-gaps argument (and even natural theology as a whole). At the very least, it should make a persuasive case that Christianity is not about evolution, or the lack-thereof. The latter deals very much with science "in action," biases, corrections of biases, etc. It would hopefully discourage the typical fears of science (it certainly doesn't hurt that Gould is a lot less rabid than Dawkins, in my experience).
The simple fact is that I don't think that opposition to evolution is really about evolution at all. I think it's about superstitious theology (and its removal by science), and misunderstanding about what science is and is not. Evolution happens to be the word of the day because its results directly confront this God-of-the-gaps in most peoples' minds. But if M-theory weren't so esoteric, it would be right up there alongside evolution.
from: http://www.christianforums.com/t273
John Maynard Smith - "The Theory of Evolution"
Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors by Carl Sagan
The Naked Ape or The Human Animal by Desmond Morris
Jonathan Marks' What does it mean to be 98% Chimpanzee
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/l
several ideas: make the list only things that are avaiable online
my thoughts as i read the threads:
There seems to be at least 4 distinct types of people that come to the CED forums regularly.
1-those that post, that do so to learn from the debate, to sharpen debate skills, to enjoy the activity. they are there to persuade but are listening, if only to carefully rebuttal.
2-those that post, that come to preach, they are not interested in the debate as much as they have a point to make and a deep reason to make the point. Often simply don't listen.
3-those that post questions, are there to learn, either for a class or for themselves. Listen but make mistakes in vocabulary or reasoning. Sometimes stay, often leave because of the atmosphere.
4-those that don't post, the lurkers.
Everyone who has been here for any length of time, is aware of the signal to noise ratio problem. We attempt to deal with the problem in numerous ways. What we are striving for is that every thread is interesting and you can learn something from every post. That no one just clicks through a thread looking for that one nugget of information, but rather takes time to see if people are talking about what they are personally interested in. That is the fundamental reason for personal blacklists, so you can just ignore people who you don't feel contribute.
This idea of triered discussions, of required reading to post, is the way the real world operates. Professional societies, professional journals etc are a response to try to raise their discussion to a level that everyone will find interesting. What has happened with the rise of the net and bbs/forum software that we can follow politic ideals and attempt to be radically democratic (who ever shows up, can speak) and anti-elitist. This has the extraordinary advantage of recruiting talented amateurs, a phenomena that i believe is going to shake up the professionalism of society over the long run. For professional societies are not just debating societies but they are guilds who function to raise the prices of those within by excluding many from the outside who could do the work but are, for some reason, unable to jump through the professional societies hoops. Since anyone can voice an opinion on an open forum we constantly see people begin out as lurkers, then clueless newbies, then through talent and study, they learn and eventually are doing good creative work.
The highest quality discussion on the CED issues online that i am aware of is the ASA list. In fact, it is unique in the quality and level of it's discussions. Other places, like TWeb i learn to respect the writings labelled with particular login names and discard others, while at least scanning unfamiliar ones looking for insight and things i don't know. And i find them, several times a week i blog a new idea i've gained from this discussion. But these pieces may not occur often enough to "pay for " the online time i spend reading. The signal to noise ratio is so much higher in books that i often wonder about spending less time online. I've even consciously left the discussion for months to test my own motivations and understand why i was here. It is this pay back for time spent that i am most interested in with the idea of "required reading" or entry level posting tests.
I'd like to lessen the ignorant, repetitive, the FAQ answers that, type of preaching that occurs. I don't mind the high schooler that asks a stupid question, because i've seen those same logins evolve into valued members. What i mind is the person who doesn't understand the field yet takes up a substantial piece of my time to read and rebuttal what has to have been the topic of dozens of past threads. That's what FAQ's evolved to do, fill people in, but even a mega site like origins is not as good as a handle of well recommended books (although it is approaching that, and as open source shows will exceed the ability of any small group, even with the paid for and volunteer distinction)
perhaps the way to approach this constellation of related problems is to build FAQ's, with them constantly pointing to online places like origins. but at the same time creating sites like G.Morton's with lots of consistently good essays that are of publishing quality. For isn't that really what we are talking about when we discriminate towards books and point people to recommend reading lists, we are seeking consistently high quality writing. Things we are comfortable spending our limited and valuable time reading and interacting with.
here is talk.origins recommended reading list
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/rea
the 4th day by Howard Van Till, if only for the chart and the package motif.
a nice reading list at: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2
yet another good one with lots of sublists at: http://sciencepolitics.blogspot.com/200
from: http://www.christianforums.com/show
An ID reading list.
The single best source of information on Intelligent Design Creationism written in straight forward English is the Dover Panda Trial decision by Judge Jones
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dov
But, if you have far too much free time, or you are an academically obsesive type who reads the primary literature, there are a dozen or so books that are "must reads."
First I'll list the key IDC works. These are mostly the "usual suspects" but there were some important earlier contibuters that the Discovery Institute keeps at arms length because of their obvious continuity with the refuted "scientific creationism" and their clearly expressed Christian fundamentalism.
These early fundamentalist "creation scientists" that were well in front of the likes of Phillip Johnson are;
Thaxton, C. B., Walter L. Bradley, R. L. Olsen
1984 The Mystery of Life’s Origin. New York: Philosophical Library
The authors are chemists. Thaxton was the founding editor for the now imfamous "Of Pandas and People" and my even have been the one to coin the phrase "Intelligent Design."
Davis, Percival, Dean H. Kenyon, Charles B. Thaxton (ed.s)
1993 Of Pandas and People: The Central Question of Biological Origins Charles B. Thaxton, editor. Dallas, TX: Haughton Publishing.
The other predecessor wass theologin J. P. Moreland. You will find good examples of his thought in:
Moreland, J. P. (ed.)
1994 The Creation Hypothesis: Scientific Evidence for the Intelligent Designer. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press
This book features contributions from several of the (now) common names associated with IDC; Johnson, Dembski, Meyer, Bradley&Thaxton, and also YEC Kurt Wise, and OEC Hugh Ross. The contributers are all quite clear in their use of science as Christian aplogetics.
Additional books key to IDC are;
Behe, Michael J.
1996 Darwin's Black Box. New York: Touchstone (Simon & Schuster)
Dembski, William
1998 The Design Inference - Eliminating Chance Through Small Probabilities Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
_______
2002. No Free Lunch. Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased Without Intelligence. Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.
Johnson, Phillip E.
1993 Darwin on Trial, 2nd Edition. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press
Wells, Jonathan
2000 Icons of Evolution. Washington D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.
Three vacuous IDC books that are written for popular audiences are;
O'Leary, Denyse
2004 By Design or by Chance (Minneapolis: Augsburg Books)
Pearcy, Nancy
2004 Total Truth: Liberating Christianity From Its Cultural Captivity. (Weaton:Crossway Books for Good News Books)
Strobel, Lee
2004 The Case for the Creator (Grand Rapids: Zordervan)
O'Leary and Strobel use the ploy of pretending to be open minded and "questioning the scientists." They are of course doing no such thing. If the "truths" promoted by Pearcy are all Christianity has available to become "liberated," it is finished.
There are dozens of serious critical replies and reviews to the works mentioned above that are avialable simply by searching the web. On the other hand, there are a smaller number of works that should disabuse anyone tempted by IDC;
Mark Perakh
2003 Unintelligent Design New York: Prometheus Press
Niall Shanks and Richard Dawkins
2004) God, the Devil, and Darwin: A Critique of Intelligent Design Theory Oxford
Robert T. Pennock (Editor)
2001 Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics: Philosophical, Theological, and
Scientific Perspectives MIT Press
Matt Young, Tanner Edis (Editors),
2004 Why Intelligent Design Fails: A Scientific Critique of the New Creationism
Rutgers University Press
Barbara Carroll Forrest, Paul R. Gross
2004 Creationism's Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design Oxford
University Press
Barbara Forrest was brilliant in her Pandas Trial testimony, and that too should be read by everyone interested in IDC. Why not read the whole transcript?
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dov
My chapter in Why Intelligent Design Fails was cited and used in the Dover Pandas Trail cross-examination of Mike Behe which pleased me no end. Mark's book is a great read and covers more than just IDC. His comments regarding Orthodox Jewish creationism, and his debunking of "Bible codes" are worth the price of the book.
grabbed from the signature at: http://www.christianforums.com/u939
posted as: http://www.christianforums.com/t273
I've often wondered if a forum like this for the creation-evolution-design debate would benefit from entry requirements.
say reading a certain set of books or websites and taking a quick test---this would allow posting
then a more complex list and maybe a short essay or a book review showing that you mastered the content of the book, for the right to start a thread.
say you could create such a place to discuss these issues.
what are the big topics you would desire that people were familiar with and what are the books and/or websites you would require familiarity with?
i'd propose familiarity with:
argumentation and logic-
epistemology-
biological science-
human evolution-
history and philosophy of science-
elements of the CED debate itself-
i'd required reading:
for elements of the debate=>
Evolution from Creation to New Creation: Conflict, Conversation, and Convergence
Ted Peters and Marinez Hewlett
history and philosophy of science==>
David Oldroyd
_The Arch of Knowledge: An Introductory Study of the History of the Philosophy and Methodology of Science_
on human evolution==>
Where Do We Come From?: The Molecular Evidence for Human Descent by Jan Klein, Naoyuki Takahata
* Knowledge of logical fallacies (esp. argument from ignorance and appeal to popularity)
* Basic knowledge of evolution - can give accurate definitions of the following: biological evolution, species, natural selection, mutation, allele, gene pool, speciation.
* Knowing what evolution is and what it is not. (ex. cats giving birth to dogs is NOT evolution)
* Knowledge of how science works - the scientific method, empiricism, falsifiability, methodological naturalism, uniformitarianism, etc
* the ability to distinguish science from pseudoscience
The main problem I see with lists like this being a prerequisite is that it's pretty much an impossibility for a creationist to fulfill the criteria and remain a creationist.
but several websites like:
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ind
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/
ought to make the required reading list.
which reminds me of the book:
The Art of Deception: An Introduction to Critical Thinking : How to : Win an Argument, Defend a Case, Recognize a Fallacy, See Through a Deception
by Nicholas Capaldi
There are so many! [consider them all five stars]
One issue is that too few folks understand both perspectives. I recommend for the general reader interested in the Bible the following:
(This assumes that you have also read at least Genesis).
Blenkinsopp, Joseph
1992 The Pentateuch: An Introduction to the First Five Books of the Bible The Anchor Bible Reference Library New York: ABRL/Doubleday
Dalley, Stephanie
2000 Myths from Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others. Revised Oxford: Oxford University Press
Dever, William
2001 What Did the Biblical Writers Know & When Did They Know IT?: What Archaeology can tell us about the reality of ancient Israel Grand Rapids: William B.
Eerdmans Publishing Company
Finkelstein, Israel, Neil Silberman
2001 The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts New York: The Free Press
Friedman, Richard Elliott
1987 Who Wrote the Bible New York:Harper and Row (Paperback Edition)
The following book by Ron Numbers is also my recommendation for all partisipants, because one should know the social and historical origin of creationism in America.
Numbers, Ronald L.
1993 The Creationists: The Evolution of Scientific Creationism Berkeley: University of California Press
<----has two postings recommending it
I would next recommend that all creationists have read some basic level, general reader science (some of the science advocates should as well). I have left out all of the books by Dawkins because A) I am not particularly fond of his writing, and B) someone else will surely mention them. The following will provide a good general understanding of what the science standards are today. Darwin's book is for historical reference, although I am surprised at how well his core argument has held up for 150 years. :
Burnie, Davin
1999 Get a Grip on Evolution London: The Ivy Press
Dalrymple, G. Brent,
1991 The Age of the Earth. Stanford: Stanford University Press
Carroll, Sean B.
2005 Endless Forms Most Beutiful New York: Norton
Darwin, Charles
1859 "The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection" (Six editions between 1859
and 1872)
Iris Fry,
2000 The Emergence of Life on Earth: A Historical and Scientific Overview Rutgers University Press
Tattersall, Ian
1995 The Fossil Trail Oxford University Press
There are several books about the Science/Creationism conflict from the point-of-view of scientists. Two I recommend are:
Eldredge, Niles
2001 "The Triumph of Evolution: And the Failure of Creationism" New York: W. H.
Freeman & Co.
Scott, Eugenie C.,
2005 Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction University of California Press
There are also a few proscience works written by Christians that are directed to other Christians:
Ken Miller
1999 Finding Darwin's God New York: HarperCollins
Towne, Margaret Gray
2003 Honest to Genesis: A Biblical & Scientific Challenge to Creationism Baltimore: PublishAmerica
Stephen J. Godfrey, Christopher R. Smith
2005 Paradigms on Pligrimadge Toronto: Clements Publishing
Far too few proscience people have paid much attention to what creationism really is about. I think that the proscience advocates (and many of the creationists) should read:
Batten, Don (ed.)
2002 The Revised & Expanded Answers Book Green Forest AR: Master Books
Ham, Ken
2001 ed. The Lie, Evolution. Green Forest: Master Books
Lubenow, Marvin
1992 The Bones of Contention: A Creationist Assessment of Human Fossils Grand Rapids: Baker Book House
Sarfati, Jonathon
1999 Refuting Evolution Green Forest AR: Master Books
Thaxton, C. B., Walter L. Bradley, R. L. Olsen
1984 The Mystery of Life’s Origin. New York: Philosophical Library
Whitcomb, John C., Henry M. Morris
1961 The Genesis Flood Grand Rapids: Baker Book House
If you are like me, you will find the abject lies told by creationists to be both infuriating and invigorating.
Inteligent Design Caretionism deserves its own list which I hope to attend to later today.
from: DR.G.H. posting at: http://www.christianforums.com/show
from: http://www.christianforums.com/t204
i managed to get The Biblical Flood: A Case Study of the Church's Response to Extrabiblical Evidence
by Davis A. Young
looks very good.
reading on naturalism and found
Is Nature Supernatural? A Philosophical Exploration of Science and Nature
by Simon L. Altmann
certainly one place to start.
My favorite theology of evolution is God After Darwin by John Haught. Haught puts out a good natural theology in that book. I have written about 10,000 words based upon that book and Kenneth Miller's Finding Darwins God for a formal debate elsewhere.
I also read Doubt's About Darwin for a history of the ID movement but I find the evidence for evolution and natural selection too strong.
http://www.literature.org/authors/darwi
"The Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection" by Charles Darwin.
The Demon Haunted World
Carl Sagan
YECist list
-Shattering the myths of Darwinism
Richard Milton
-Darwin on trial
-Defeating Darwinism by opening minds
-Reason in the balance
-Objections sustained
Phillip E Johnson
-Not by chance! Shattering the modern theory of evolution
Dr Lee Spetner
-The Patristic Doctrine of creation (Epiphany Journal,fall 89-winter 90)
Father Seraphim Rose
"Dogmatics in Outline" by Karl Barth
"The Mismeasure of Man" by Stephen Jay Gould
Although neither of these deal with evolution, per se, I think both help to reorient one's thinking. The former utterly condemns any God-of-the-gaps argument (and even natural theology as a whole). At the very least, it should make a persuasive case that Christianity is not about evolution, or the lack-thereof. The latter deals very much with science "in action," biases, corrections of biases, etc. It would hopefully discourage the typical fears of science (it certainly doesn't hurt that Gould is a lot less rabid than Dawkins, in my experience).
The simple fact is that I don't think that opposition to evolution is really about evolution at all. I think it's about superstitious theology (and its removal by science), and misunderstanding about what science is and is not. Evolution happens to be the word of the day because its results directly confront this God-of-the-gaps in most peoples' minds. But if M-theory weren't so esoteric, it would be right up there alongside evolution.
from: http://www.christianforums.com/t273
John Maynard Smith - "The Theory of Evolution"
Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors by Carl Sagan
The Naked Ape or The Human Animal by Desmond Morris
Jonathan Marks' What does it mean to be 98% Chimpanzee
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/l
several ideas: make the list only things that are avaiable online
my thoughts as i read the threads:
There seems to be at least 4 distinct types of people that come to the CED forums regularly.
1-those that post, that do so to learn from the debate, to sharpen debate skills, to enjoy the activity. they are there to persuade but are listening, if only to carefully rebuttal.
2-those that post, that come to preach, they are not interested in the debate as much as they have a point to make and a deep reason to make the point. Often simply don't listen.
3-those that post questions, are there to learn, either for a class or for themselves. Listen but make mistakes in vocabulary or reasoning. Sometimes stay, often leave because of the atmosphere.
4-those that don't post, the lurkers.
Everyone who has been here for any length of time, is aware of the signal to noise ratio problem. We attempt to deal with the problem in numerous ways. What we are striving for is that every thread is interesting and you can learn something from every post. That no one just clicks through a thread looking for that one nugget of information, but rather takes time to see if people are talking about what they are personally interested in. That is the fundamental reason for personal blacklists, so you can just ignore people who you don't feel contribute.
This idea of triered discussions, of required reading to post, is the way the real world operates. Professional societies, professional journals etc are a response to try to raise their discussion to a level that everyone will find interesting. What has happened with the rise of the net and bbs/forum software that we can follow politic ideals and attempt to be radically democratic (who ever shows up, can speak) and anti-elitist. This has the extraordinary advantage of recruiting talented amateurs, a phenomena that i believe is going to shake up the professionalism of society over the long run. For professional societies are not just debating societies but they are guilds who function to raise the prices of those within by excluding many from the outside who could do the work but are, for some reason, unable to jump through the professional societies hoops. Since anyone can voice an opinion on an open forum we constantly see people begin out as lurkers, then clueless newbies, then through talent and study, they learn and eventually are doing good creative work.
The highest quality discussion on the CED issues online that i am aware of is the ASA list. In fact, it is unique in the quality and level of it's discussions. Other places, like TWeb i learn to respect the writings labelled with particular login names and discard others, while at least scanning unfamiliar ones looking for insight and things i don't know. And i find them, several times a week i blog a new idea i've gained from this discussion. But these pieces may not occur often enough to "pay for " the online time i spend reading. The signal to noise ratio is so much higher in books that i often wonder about spending less time online. I've even consciously left the discussion for months to test my own motivations and understand why i was here. It is this pay back for time spent that i am most interested in with the idea of "required reading" or entry level posting tests.
I'd like to lessen the ignorant, repetitive, the FAQ answers that, type of preaching that occurs. I don't mind the high schooler that asks a stupid question, because i've seen those same logins evolve into valued members. What i mind is the person who doesn't understand the field yet takes up a substantial piece of my time to read and rebuttal what has to have been the topic of dozens of past threads. That's what FAQ's evolved to do, fill people in, but even a mega site like origins is not as good as a handle of well recommended books (although it is approaching that, and as open source shows will exceed the ability of any small group, even with the paid for and volunteer distinction)
perhaps the way to approach this constellation of related problems is to build FAQ's, with them constantly pointing to online places like origins. but at the same time creating sites like G.Morton's with lots of consistently good essays that are of publishing quality. For isn't that really what we are talking about when we discriminate towards books and point people to recommend reading lists, we are seeking consistently high quality writing. Things we are comfortable spending our limited and valuable time reading and interacting with.
here is talk.origins recommended reading list
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/rea
the 4th day by Howard Van Till, if only for the chart and the package motif.
a nice reading list at: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2
yet another good one with lots of sublists at: http://sciencepolitics.blogspot.com/200
from: http://www.christianforums.com/show
An ID reading list.
The single best source of information on Intelligent Design Creationism written in straight forward English is the Dover Panda Trial decision by Judge Jones
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dov
But, if you have far too much free time, or you are an academically obsesive type who reads the primary literature, there are a dozen or so books that are "must reads."
First I'll list the key IDC works. These are mostly the "usual suspects" but there were some important earlier contibuters that the Discovery Institute keeps at arms length because of their obvious continuity with the refuted "scientific creationism" and their clearly expressed Christian fundamentalism.
These early fundamentalist "creation scientists" that were well in front of the likes of Phillip Johnson are;
Thaxton, C. B., Walter L. Bradley, R. L. Olsen
1984 The Mystery of Life’s Origin. New York: Philosophical Library
The authors are chemists. Thaxton was the founding editor for the now imfamous "Of Pandas and People" and my even have been the one to coin the phrase "Intelligent Design."
Davis, Percival, Dean H. Kenyon, Charles B. Thaxton (ed.s)
1993 Of Pandas and People: The Central Question of Biological Origins Charles B. Thaxton, editor. Dallas, TX: Haughton Publishing.
The other predecessor wass theologin J. P. Moreland. You will find good examples of his thought in:
Moreland, J. P. (ed.)
1994 The Creation Hypothesis: Scientific Evidence for the Intelligent Designer. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press
This book features contributions from several of the (now) common names associated with IDC; Johnson, Dembski, Meyer, Bradley&Thaxton, and also YEC Kurt Wise, and OEC Hugh Ross. The contributers are all quite clear in their use of science as Christian aplogetics.
Additional books key to IDC are;
Behe, Michael J.
1996 Darwin's Black Box. New York: Touchstone (Simon & Schuster)
Dembski, William
1998 The Design Inference - Eliminating Chance Through Small Probabilities Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
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2002. No Free Lunch. Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased Without Intelligence. Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.
Johnson, Phillip E.
1993 Darwin on Trial, 2nd Edition. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press
Wells, Jonathan
2000 Icons of Evolution. Washington D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.
Three vacuous IDC books that are written for popular audiences are;
O'Leary, Denyse
2004 By Design or by Chance (Minneapolis: Augsburg Books)
Pearcy, Nancy
2004 Total Truth: Liberating Christianity From Its Cultural Captivity. (Weaton:Crossway Books for Good News Books)
Strobel, Lee
2004 The Case for the Creator (Grand Rapids: Zordervan)
O'Leary and Strobel use the ploy of pretending to be open minded and "questioning the scientists." They are of course doing no such thing. If the "truths" promoted by Pearcy are all Christianity has available to become "liberated," it is finished.
There are dozens of serious critical replies and reviews to the works mentioned above that are avialable simply by searching the web. On the other hand, there are a smaller number of works that should disabuse anyone tempted by IDC;
Mark Perakh
2003 Unintelligent Design New York: Prometheus Press
Niall Shanks and Richard Dawkins
2004) God, the Devil, and Darwin: A Critique of Intelligent Design Theory Oxford
Robert T. Pennock (Editor)
2001 Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics: Philosophical, Theological, and
Scientific Perspectives MIT Press
Matt Young, Tanner Edis (Editors),
2004 Why Intelligent Design Fails: A Scientific Critique of the New Creationism
Rutgers University Press
Barbara Carroll Forrest, Paul R. Gross
2004 Creationism's Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design Oxford
University Press
Barbara Forrest was brilliant in her Pandas Trial testimony, and that too should be read by everyone interested in IDC. Why not read the whole transcript?
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dov
My chapter in Why Intelligent Design Fails was cited and used in the Dover Pandas Trail cross-examination of Mike Behe which pleased me no end. Mark's book is a great read and covers more than just IDC. His comments regarding Orthodox Jewish creationism, and his debunking of "Bible codes" are worth the price of the book.
